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posted by [personal profile] the_dala at 03:28pm on 24/01/2005 under
Alright, so I've been turning all this over in my head for a few days, got a few thoughts organized in a comment reply (gracias, [livejournal.com profile] hannahrorlove -- didn't mean to use you as a guinea pig, it just sort of happened :) ), and here we go.



This started out as a sort of "My [fill in character] Is/Isn't" sort of thing, more a general musing than a reaction to any fics I've read recently. When I got around to Will, my first idea was "Will is a virgin." And then I thought, "Well, why?" Is it because the Will/Elizabeth shipper in me loves the specialness of that relationship, and would consider any sexual activity previous to its consummation offensive? Is it because the Jack/Will shipper wants a totally innocent Will as the subject of Jack's debauchery? On both accounts: sometimes, because both of those scenarios appeal to a specific part of me. But enjoying seeing that happen doesn't answer the question why, in terms of characterization, Will's not gettin' some prior to the movie. And in the end I decided it has less to do with his personal beliefs about or experience with sex and more to do with two aspects I see in his character (at the start of the film, because he's certainly changed by the end):

1. Will upholds the status quo

2. Will is all about purity

For the first one, I offer the example of the first time we see him greet Elizabeth (excluding the prologue). It's very clear that he's attracted to her, and she's certainly not unresponsive to him. But he refuses to greet her informally as she would like, because he knows his place and accepts that that's the way things are. Similarly, he's exceptionally polite to his superiors and though he gives a hint of resenting his circumstances when Mr. Brown gets the credit for Jack's capture, that resentment isn't overt.

It's logical that Will is so concerned with keeping up appearances, so to speak, because he's basically at the mercy of these people when they rescue him in the prologue. With (presumably) no family, no money, and no place to go, whoever got him an apprenticeship at the blacksmith's set him up with a comparatively sweet deal (I'm guessing it was Governor Swann because he's awesome, but that's never directly mentioned). Sure, his boss is a drunken lout and his work goes unappreciated, but the kid's got enough food to keep him fit for physical labor, a roof over his head, and at least more social standing that a beggar (or a pirate, but that's another topic). I've never believed in the theory that Brown abused Will, btw, either physically or sexually. Yelled at him and berated him and neglected him, sure, but there's just no evidence in Will's character to suggest anything worse.

This is not to say that Will shouldn't feel stifled or unhappy with his life -- I'm sure he does, and when he meets Jack, it becomes even clearer to him. But before that, I think he's basically determined to take his lumps and soldier on because that's how the system works, and he believes in the system. Look at the scene where he confronts Norrington about going after Elizabeth. It's way more than just Will just being a young, impatient asshole. The Navy is bound to protect the citizens, and to Will's black-and-white definition of the world, they're not living up to their duties, and he just doesn't understand why. Society having dashed his ideals in such a way, he feels he has no choice but to seek out alternative solutions.

A sidenote -- he also reacts in surprise when Jack doesn't act as his bloodthirsty pirate role demands and immediately shoot him. Jack, more than anything else, throws his own world out of balance. But more on that later.

A bit more on his relationship with Elizabeth in regards to his outlook on the world. We know he's in love with her, and that's why he's so determined to rescue her that he springs a man from jail, etc. and consequently starts to question all this. But throughout the course of the film, you never really get the feeling that he's actively trying to win her. He doesn't try to show off for her at any point, and he's a perfect gentleman when he's tending to her wound until she indicates that she would like him to touch her boobies (not that that's where it goes, but you can totally see from Will's face that it's what he's thinking). He misses that opportune moment in the cave because he's still halfway clinging to this idea that Norrington is a proper mate for her and he never will be, no matter how either of them feels. Even at the end, when he declares his love for her, I think it's more something he needs to do for himself and his own personal growth than out of a strong belief that she'll throw convention to the wind and support him (which she does, of course, and it's one of the many reasons I love Elizabeth). I also love that little look they share when she takes his arm and says "As is mine." It's this kind of considering look, because he's matured to the point where he knows his own worth and he's acknowledged the importance of his own judgement, and Elizabeth's, over what society deems appropriate.

Going back to my original point, which was Will and pre-marital sex. Christianity is an undeniable force in the society to which he belongs, and I believe he would accept its stipulations the same way he accepts those of secular authorities. I'm also fond of the idea that one or both of his parents was Catholic, which adds a special layer of guilt to sexual feelings (especially for other men, if it comes to that) that the Anglican church doesn't have quite as firm a grasp on. It also makes him a minority, which would further contribute to his determination to fit in and not overstep his boundaries. I love dealing with Will and religion; the subject featured in one of my first J/W fics (though I don't always bring it to the fore, not when I'm looking for a quick J/W fix). Sex and God and guilt all rolled up into a messy tangle is a biiiiiiig kink, which is why I love stories like [livejournal.com profile] hija_paloma's Penance and [livejournal.com profile] sparrowhawk723's recent Church Bells. If there are other fics floating around out there dealing with Will and religion that I've either forgotten or missed, feel free to rec me! (Except for the ones with the cutting. Those freak me out.)

Where was I? Oh yeah, onto (2) Will and purity.

I'm using the term outside of a sexual context. When I say Will is concerned with purity, I'm talking about different kinds -- purity of body, purity of emotion, and purity of intent.

The first one's pretty obvious: he's a blacksmith, and he depends upon his body functioning well and strong to be able to do his work (for the moment, we'll ignore the fact that Orlando Bloom has nothing even close to blacksmith arms. That scene where he's whacking his anvil, as Mr. Davenport puts it, makes me giggle every time). I mentioned before that we can safely assume Will never went hungry in Port Royal: for one thing, he certainly doesn't look it, and for another, even Brown would understand that he has to keep the kid fed in order to get him to work. And yeah, there's also the three hours of sword practice to keep his body honed. Additionally, Will's probably a teetotaler (spelling?) for no other reason than he's got a drunken master as evidence of the negative effects of heavy drinking. I've seen in a few fics the idea that Brown turned to drinking after his wife died, which I think is interesting, and would also have an effect on young Will.

Purity of emotion -- his love for Elizabeth, for one. But just as important: his hatred for pirates. When he tells Jack that he practices three hours a day so that he can kill pirates, you know what? I believe him. He was the only survivor of a pirate attack, and it's probable that he saw some pretty horrific things (though oddly enough, he doesn't seem to recognize any of Barbossa's men, at least not onscreen. In any case, he has the knowledge that his shipmates were killed by pirates).

That alone would be enought to fire him up against pirates, but there's also his father to consider. We know Will believed his father to be alive when he sailed from England, yet eight years later he says to Jack, "My father was a merchant sailor," so clearly he now believes him to be dead, and it's very unlikely that any news would have reached him as to how. I don't think it's farfetched to assume that young Will, with this pirate assault fresh in his memory, might come up with the idea that pirates were likewise involved with his father's death/disappearance (that, and a healthy sense of denial, which he also seems to have).

So his hatred for pirates is as pure and complete -- or even more so -- as his love for Elizabeth. Can't you just see (both small and older) Will leaping about the forge with a blade, practicing till he can't lift his arm, imagining himself vanquishing legions of pirates as he defends his adoptive home and his ladylove?

Purity of intent -- Will means to keep Elizabeth safe, and God help any man who comes between him and his mission. That's it, that's all he cares about, and he's never too subtle about it, either. It doesn't occur to him that Jack may have motives of his own that he's not wearing on his sleeve like Will. When he does hear Jack talk of using him as leverage, he's immediately suspicious, and he remains suspicious of Jack throughout every single scene, at least up till the Interceptor bites it, maybe later. Look at Orlando's facial expressions, his body language, his lines -- he's never comfortable around Jack past that scene in Tortuga. When he learns that Jack wants the Pearl back, he immediately assumes that Jack will do anything to achieve his goals, including screw Will over, because that's what Will is prepared to do for Elizabeth.

I'm not saying Jack isn't as ferocious in his desires as Will. But he wants things done with as few complications and casualties as possible (excepting Barbossa, of course). Will's...not so much with the sneaky manuvering and the subterfuge.

Wow, I've gone and left this for two hours and completely lost my train of that. Who with the what now? ::scrolls up:: Oh! The purity thing. I think I've pounded it into the ground now, and what I mean to say is, it's more of an inborn trait that the first bit, which is more conscious.

*blink* Where did my sense go? I think I've finished. So, to sum up, amongst all these digressions of general characterization: Will is a virgin. Yeah. And I'm sure not too long after the end of the movie, somebody will gladly relieve him of that state. As to whom, I'm not picky; I 'ship most anything, as you've no doubt noticed.

Addendum: the only exception to this general belief is I like the idea of Will and James having a sexual relationship and breaking it off some time before the start of the movie -- not when Will was too young, because ewww, but before he's gone through all this massive change. It's really interesting viewing the movie under that assumption, it throws a fascinating kink into the rivalry-for-Elizabeth issue, and I think it's workable (a few people have written this, am I right? I know I've seen it around. I want to say [livejournal.com profile] hija_paloma and [livejournal.com profile] guede_mazaka, but I might be pulling that out of thin air. Anyway, *thumbs up* to this plotline if it's handled delicately).

Well, that was longer than half the fic I've written. Anyway, I did briefly muse on other subjects before I got mired in Will's head.



Jack is inherently bisexual. It doesn't have to be explicitly written into a fic for me to enjoy that fic, but that's one of the things I walked out of the movie the first time fully believing. It's just...how can you argue? There's his welcome from Scarlett and Giselle, on one end, and on the other, we have all the eyesex with Norrington and his penchant for getting inappropriately close to Will. Although, tangent, you know the deleted scene where the two of them are spying on Barbossa and Co. at the island? "It's begun" and whatnot? In that scene, it's Will who's inappropriately close to Jack. Which makes me chuckle.

Elizabeth genuinely feels badly for how she treats Norrington. It's most evident in the deleted scenes, but even in the theatrical release, when she's looking up at Norrington and asking him to rescue Will as a wedding present, there's this undercurrent to her voice and her eyes, like "Holy shit, I can't believe I'm saying this." And again when she stands with Will and Jack, she's sort of holding her breath as she looks at Norrington. Yes, she's ruthless, but she's also self-aware, and she is not a bitch.

Hmmm....I'm seriously trying to remember what else I was ruminating on. I suppose this is enough for now.
Music:: "cheers dalin'," damien rice
Mood:: 'nerdy' nerdy
There are 26 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
girlpearl: old photo of me (pirate hunter by koenta)
posted by [personal profile] girlpearl at 09:03pm on 24/01/2005
a) omg <3
b) I keep forgetting to tell Jo how much I love that icon, and wish I'd had it when I was writing Penance, and yeah.
c) I have not written pre-movie Norrington/Will, though I have now written "deleted scene" Norrington/Will which presumes a sort of ongoing relationship, and if I ever get around to doing the "My Character" thing, you'll find that I do think Norrington has been a mentor (not a lover) to Will, which still--how did you say it? throws a fascinating kink into the rivalry-for-Elizabeth issue.
d) Yes, yes, yes. Yes!
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (penm - sinner)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:05am on 25/01/2005
First time I saw the icon, "Penance" popped into my head and I went "OMG that's exactly what I've been mening to meta about."

"deleted scene" Norrington/Will

That's what I was remembering. It must've been during the whole holiday mess, because I don't think I commented. But you can safely say it made me go guhhhhh.

which still--how did you say it? throws a fascinating kink into the rivalry-for-Elizabeth issue.

I have this idea where, if they were involved, it would be be James who decides it simply has to end and they both need to move on. And Will's not happy, of course, but he gets the reasons, until he realizes that the person James choose to pursue is Elizabeth. James isn't being a dick about it, it's just that Will wouldn't even register as a potential suitor for her in his mind; but to Will it's like a double betrayal. And then when he gets shut down by James in the movie, and they later have this conversation on the Dauntless where Will is kept conveniently by himself, and it's all heated and angry and accusatory (because not only did James have to worry about Elizabeth being in danger, but Will as well) and they yell until they kiss and have hot frantic upset sex. Which Elizabeth somehow manages to see.

I did not just commit myself to writing that fic. Nooooooooo sir.

ext_7670: (Pirate)
posted by [identity profile] monkeypuzzle.livejournal.com at 03:50am on 25/01/2005
Oh yes you did. OMG PLEASE!!!!!

A-hem. I will be back in a bit to truely comment. *g*
girlpearl: old photo of me (pirate hunter by koenta)
posted by [personal profile] girlpearl at 03:13pm on 25/01/2005
See, monkey agrees with me. You totally committed to that.

if you don't write it I will
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:29pm on 25/01/2005
That's supposed to motivate me? Dove-written Will/James...no Dove-written Will/James...*pendulum swings*

We'll see. I seem to get struck by inspiration when I've got a heavy load of schoolwork, after all.
girlpearl: old photo of me (Default)
posted by [personal profile] girlpearl at 03:32pm on 25/01/2005
Yes but you'll do it so much BETTER
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:34pm on 25/01/2005
We could both write a version. Stick 'em in an arena and let them fight it out. Two fics enter; one fic leaves.

Ignore me. I'm in a very weird mood this morning.
girlpearl: old photo of me (Default)
posted by [personal profile] girlpearl at 03:42pm on 25/01/2005
That's an excellent idea.

Maybe we'll stick 'em in an arena and they'll mate and make little fic babies omg.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:48pm on 25/01/2005
Hee! I much prefer that ::coos over wee fic babies::
ext_7670: (plot-sharks)
posted by [identity profile] monkeypuzzle.livejournal.com at 12:38am on 26/01/2005
Y'all realise that Dove/Dala fic babies would make me squee with happines.

Dove/Dala will&james fic babies would kill me.

Just so y'all know. *g*

::lets loose the sharks o' doooooom::
girlpearl: old photo of me (Default)
posted by [personal profile] girlpearl at 01:58pm on 25/01/2005
OH YES YOU MOST CERTAINLY DID.

Yes. YES. I want that.

That's what I want for my birthday, Dala.
 
posted by [identity profile] hazelhawthorne.livejournal.com at 10:14pm on 24/01/2005
If I make a mention of everything in this post I agree with, my comment will wind up being longer than your post. So I will leave it at...

OMG YES!

Jack is so obviously bisexual that my daughter, who was nine at the time, once informed me of this during a conversation we were having about homosexuality in Disney films. The "Duh, mom!" was clearly evident in her tone.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:07am on 25/01/2005
Hee, your daughter is neat. Thankee!
 
posted by [identity profile] torn-eledhwen.livejournal.com at 10:17pm on 24/01/2005
I agree with your conclusions on Will. Really, POTC is Will's journey, his coming-of-age, where he comes to understand (as I think Elizabeth already understands) that breaking the rules a little won't kill him. Jack's the main catalyst for that change, as not only does Jack break the rules of normal society, he also breaks the rules of piracy by being "a good man". Will learns that sometimes being true to what you love or what you really believe in is more important than playing by society's guidelines.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (vilewords - will)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:08am on 25/01/2005
*nodnodnod*
 
posted by [identity profile] penm.livejournal.com at 10:50pm on 24/01/2005
Did the icon sparked this? If so, I am pleased.

(If not, I am still pleased!)

I agree with EVERYTHING you say. Everything. Totally. Will. I think POTC was Will sort of. Growing up, I think. Change. Turnpoint. Yes. :D <3. Although you said it much more better.

And the James/Will makes my brain shortcircuit. Want some now.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (vilewords - will)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:09am on 25/01/2005
icon spark

Not quite, but it did make it imperative that I write all this down NOW. And it did turn me into a giant puddle of lust.

James/Will makes my brain shortcircuit. Want some now.

OMG I KNOW.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:16am on 25/01/2005
Jo! Guede says you wrote James/Will! Dónde esta? *puppy eyes*
 
posted by [identity profile] guede-mazaka.livejournal.com at 10:51pm on 24/01/2005
[livejournal.com profile] penm wrote Will/James that had obviously established itself before the movie started. I've written Will/James prior attraction fic, but they didn't get it on till post-movie.

You're giving me faint ideas, though. Like what if Elizabeth hadn't taken the coin and it'd been Will that had been kidnapped? With Will/James into account.

Wait. I've seen that. Minus the Will/James, but I've seen that bunny.

And *thumbs-up* to meta. Am still keeping my self-imposed gag on saying anything more.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (vilewords - will)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:15am on 25/01/2005
penm wrote Will/James that had obviously established itself before the movie started.

Was it around the holidays? I'll have to go bug her about that. For yours, I think I was thinking of the one where pirate!Will comes back to married James and Elizabeth, and a comment he makes about idolizing Norrington. Which I loved.

You're giving me faint ideas, though. Like what if Elizabeth hadn't taken the coin and it'd been Will that had been kidnapped? With Will/James into account.

Don't tease! *bounce bounce* So it'd be James going off to rescue Will, maybe with Elizabeth in tow? Or would Elizabeth be springing Jack from jail? That's awesome.

 
posted by [identity profile] guede-mazaka.livejournal.com at 02:58am on 25/01/2005
Yeah, and yeah to both. Thanks:)

My head's nearly always had it that Norrington taught Will how to use a sword.

And damn, it'd be tempting to write, but I don't know when I'm going to be free for a mega-rewrite like that:(
(deleted comment)
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (penm - sinner)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:18am on 25/01/2005
icon

Isn't it though? I just want to stare at it forever and ever.

And yay! ::does the Dance of Reccing Joy::
 
posted by [identity profile] metalkatt.livejournal.com at 11:23pm on 24/01/2005
Wow. As a completely sublimated Will writer, I have to agree with practically everything you say. And you also make the indirect point as to why Will cannot be a wet bitch for anyone. *hugs you for that* Very well said.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (vilewords - will)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:22am on 25/01/2005
*high five, fellow Will fan* Thanks :)
ext_7670: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] monkeypuzzle.livejournal.com at 12:36am on 26/01/2005
I have come to terms with the fact that I have nothing to say but:
Yes
Yes Totally
Yes Totally OMG!!!!

That's m'boy. *g* Not terribly intelligent but you've said everything so very, very well.

 
posted by [identity profile] berne.livejournal.com at 10:12pm on 28/01/2005
This post is absolutely fascinating. So much love for it. *adds to memories*

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