poll: potc canon [the Dalaverse]

I'm curious about this because of the discussion over on

potc_dogwatch (hey Mel, can I link to this even though it's not directly related to this week's topic?). Not so much the wider concept of what's considered canon, but those scenes actually captured on film, in both the final edited version of the film and the deleted scenes.

[Poll #866609]

The deleted scenes from CoBP are some of my favorite deleted scenes from any movie; I feel like they add real depth to the characters, not just time (although I completely understand that cuts had to be made, the film being pretty long as is). In particular, the scenes between Jack and Elizabeth really clarify the relationship between them -- the extended version of the island scene (which I prefer to the film version, actually and kind of mentally substitute for the transition between the day island scene and the nighttime scene in the film proper; Keira explains in the commentary that they filmed that shot of Elizabeth with the bottle of rum and the determined!face later) gives them a chance to interact without the other characters, and the peas-in-a-pod scene seems to often be treated as canon even though it isn't actually in the movie. Honestly, most of the time I forget the deleted scenes aren't actually in the movie. I'm also extremely fond of the extended James/Elizabeth scene on the Dauntless, because by showing her guilt over manipulating James makes her a more well-rounded character, even if it does nothing to move the plot forward.

The only exception to this (that I can think of at the moment, anyway -- it's been awhile) is the "Jack removes his own curse" scene, where they clearly hadn't figured out how the whole skeleton pirate thing worked. Jack removing his curse by spilling his blood on the coin and then tossing it to Will makes much more sense. It's a nice shot of Orlando Bloom in moonlight, however :)

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I didn't choose anything because I've always wondered if the deleted scenes are supposed to be considered canon. They change the characters considerably, enhancing the relationship between Jack and Elizabeth, Elizabeth and Norrington, and making Norrington a much more sympathetic character than I saw in my theater viewings of CotBP. As far as fanfic goes, I've been using them as though they were canon, except for that alternate breaking-the-curse scene, just because they give more depth to the characters.

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That's actually what I wanted to know -- not whether they should be considered canon, by whatever authority, but whether fans and/or fic writers consider them to be. So I'd put you down for yes, personally :)

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Bwaha! I'd forgottena all about that one. Or associated it with the blooper roll. But I agree, in no way does it contradict accepted canon!

I'd forgotten the removing curse scene too. I think I don't really count it among the other deleted scenes because it's more of a replaced scene - the other scenes are just omitted, but that one has a better explanation in the movie.

Otherwise, I consider them all canon, and love the island one particularly.

Replaced scene -- yeah, that makes sense.

I'd say yes and no. As in, the canon is the movie plus the optional extra alternate universes that are generated by the deleted scenes. Sub-canon, maybe. But they're certainly not fanon, and they are source material of some kind.
Mostly, I'd say what the scenes tell us about the characters is canon, but the actual scenes might not have really happened.

eg:
Peas-in-a-pod happened.
The James-Elizabeth ship scene might have happened.
The one where James wishes Will and Elizabeth "the best of luck to you both" at the end didn't happen, but James is still the person who could have said it and there's a universe just one step over from ours in which he did.
The Jack-coin one didn't happen because Jack returned his coin earlier in the movie.
The Jack-coin one didn't happen because Jack didn't return his coin at all, and when the island sinks pre-DMC, Jack's stuck with his curse.

But that's just my take on things :P I'd call DMC optional extra canon too.

That's an interesting take about things that might have happened. I like it. Except for DMC -- for me, like it or not, it's canon.

I went for the last option. I consider edits made due to time constraints almost canon. In theory, the scenes could be put back into the film without causing problems. There is always the possiblity that one day a tv station will show the film with the deleted scenes added. I consider alternate scene edits not to be canon. They're simply on the DVD to show how the film could have gone or ended, and giving you an insight into the creative process.

Man, I'd love to have a version with the deleted scenes cut back in! I wouldn't have to switch discs every time I watch the movie :)

Couldn't answer the question 'cos in my head, the film and deleted scenes are totally mixed. If you didn't elaborate in your post, I wouldn't be able to remember :)

In general, my answer would be "it depends." I'll consider canon the deleted scenes that I liked and pretend not to notice those that I didn't like. I'm flexible :)

Heh, I'm always forgetting certain scenes aren't actually in the movie...sounds like you would go under "only some of them."

Pretty much what several people have said already--I see deleted scenes as canon that was cut for time, except for the "alternate" scenes.

And I would love to see a "director's cut" version with the deleted scenes included.

canon that was cut for time

::nods:: I like that way of putting it.

And I would love to see a "director's cut" version with the deleted scenes included.

In the Special Edition DVD Trilogy released after AWE comes out, perhaps? :) I swear, I'm gonna end up shelling out as much money for Jerry Bruckheimer as I have for George Lucas. Though if they pull another "Lost Disc" with DMC...well, let's face it, I'll still buy it, but I'll be pissed!

I view any scene that was filmed but then cut for timing/pacing to be canon. The director and the actors considered it to be 'canon' at the time, and the text would have informed the actors about their characters and affected how they developed their characters.

Obviously, any scene that was cut because it contradicted the rest of the story is out. The writers did do re-writes as necessary during the filming, so stuff that was tossed out because it no longer worked is no longer canon, IMO.

That seems to be the general consensus. Thank you for playing! :)

I consider the deleted scenes in my imagination, whether I refer to them in fanfic or not is another thing entirely. They are, as I said, still in the back of my mind when I write and this influences what I write a great deal.

The deleted scenes help Norrie-lovers flesh out the character even more. They give us a few more glimpses of the character. It makes him even more sympathetic to me, though I fell for him in the film far before I saw the deleted scenes.

I do have to make the comment that these deleted scenes, particularly the James/Elizabeth interactions makes me more conflicted about Elizabeth's character.

She says she would not give her word lightly, but she knows full well that Norrington knows her reason for agreeing to his proposal. In addition, the "peas in a pod" scene shows that she neglected to tell him about the undead pirates because she knew that Norrington wouldn't have risked it.

As you can see, Elizabeth isn't my favorite character in the film, though I could see her having real promise for good character development as she matures.

Well that's my two cents. :)

I like the Elizabeth portions of the deleted scenes precisely because flesh out her character -- in the Norrington scene, it's clear that she really is guilty over what she's doing to him, and the peas in a pod -- well, that's what half DMC is built on, really :) Thank you for playing!

The "no truth at all" is SO canon in my mind. Actaully, even all the James ones are canon to me because they cut the film for length, not for other reasons, like the Jack/coin bit.

Mmm. No truth at all. That should have been in there.

Yahhhh.

It's a nice shot of Orlando Bloom in moonlight, however :)

Heeeeee.

It's also very slashy. But barring slash, it's also just a good portrayal of their dynamic together. "I want-" "No, Jack" "But-" "We don't have time for this" thing.

It's a nice moment between them, yeah -- so's the brief scene of them in the boat before they go into the cave (where Orlando is leaning REALLY CLOSE IN to Johnny...)

TEASE!

I shall have to compel you to write a sixth Kilt-verse fic for that. Or something faintly Turrow. But I might settle for non-slash Swann and Will.

I see them as more than fanon but less than canon - if they don't contradict the movie as show, I'm very happy to see them being used, but I'm not opposed to people not using them.

the Dalaverse

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