the_dala: made by iconzicons (Default)
Add MemoryShare This Entry
posted by [personal profile] the_dala at 06:16pm on 03/06/2007 under
Went to see AWE for a fourth time today. You'd think there couldn't be anything new to spot, but I was paying close attention to discussions of the curse, and I can't see any answer but that the original terms between Davy Jones and Calypso were for eternity with the one-day-per-decade addendum. While explaining things to Pintel and Ragetti, she says "And every ten years, him could come ashore, and be with she who love him" - I'd thought I might be misremembering it and it was actually 'after ten years,' but no, it's definitely 'every ten years.' Also, in their conversation in the brig, there's no discussion of Calypso having stuck him on the Dutchman because she failed to show - he just thinks she doesn't love him anymore. And it actually makes sense for Calypso's line about her nature - which is not merely that she's capricious, but that she's a goddess. What's ten years to an eternity, really? She'll be there next time. To Davy, of course, who was still a man at that point, it's a big fucking deal. Someone on one of the discussion comms - [livejournal.com profile] venusinchains? - recently put forth the idea that Davy himself might have come up with the ten years/true love deal, which I like because it seems the sort of thing he'd do - he wouldn't think it plausible that a lover would stay faithful for ten years, and he'd want the next captain to feel the same pain he felt. In any case, the precise description of that curse or aspect of the curse is STILL not in the movie.

Also? I really, really don't think those two kids are gonna work things out in the afterlife. She only smiled to think he still loved her when she believed he'd merely turned into a monster because of a broken heart. After Will tells her that it was Jones who told the Brethren Court how to bind her, she is PISSED. I'm not sure the storm was actually meant to bring him down - it's more likely that she was just exercising her power after so long and throwing an extra wrench into everybody's plans. That scene where Davy Jones looks up into the gathering storm is telling: at first he looks rapturous to feel the drops of rain on his face - a lover's caress - but then he yells in defiance, realizing that she's never going to forgive him for being responsible for her imprisonment. And maybe that's the nature of the creature he's become, too. Can't say I'm too bothered, personally. He's a complex villain with degrees of sympathy, but he killed my James, he doesn't deserve the love of the sea ::shrugs::

During the course of the movie I also got my personal fanon for the underworld/the other side worked out, at least for the purposes of "Keeping Faith." Something of a relief. I'm not gonna go into it here because of spoilage, but I'm happy with it, and it solves a problem I was having.

I keep forgetting to mention this, but at last: I freakin' love Pintel's line "That's downright macab-ree." And I'm still the only person in the theater who cracks up at it.

Oh, and I sat to watch the coda scene again. The kid definitely could be a boy or a girl, in my opinion. I still like Elizabeth's outfit. And I honestly can't tell whether or not Will's on the Dutchman or another ship. In the shot of his face, I could only see the generic rigging at the edge of the frame; when we pull back to show Elizabeth and Turner Jr. on the hill waiting for him, it's too wide a shot of the ship. The sails look white, but then, the Dutchman's sails did look white when it came back up with Will as captain; it's not clear whether or not it has the frondy-things. I dunno, did I miss a closer and more extensive shot of the ship before we saw Will?

ETA: Has anybody written Will ferrying Weatherby yet? Because...mine.

And I nearly forgot! I have a fanwank for the green flash, and the fact that it seems to appear when the Dutchman leaves as well as when ships come back. Remember that the green flash signifying a soul returned from the other side is a plot point we receive from our exposition fairies, Gibbs and Pintel. Well...what if they're wrong? (Lin, don't shoot me!) It's legend, after all - it could've been whittled down from any number of reasons to the one about the soul returning. Seems the sort of thing sailors would glom onto, doesn't it?
Mood:: 'contemplative' contemplative
There are 30 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by (anonymous) at 10:36pm on 03/06/2007
Although the movie certainly doesn't make things clear and thus pretty much lets us choose the version we like best there's still this:

If a CotFD with a fickle lover can only set foot on land once every ten years (as we're told is the case for DJ in DMC) and a Captain with a faithful lover can also only come ashore once per decade then the faithfulness of the lover makes no difference at all. And in that case why bring it up and make a big deal out of it?

Admittedly this doesn't prove anything, but I think it's a pretty clear hint about what the writers' intention was.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (slytherinharlot - tia dalma)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 10:47pm on 03/06/2007
It's a good observation, but I still don't think Calypso not showing up for Davy Jones has anything to do with the nature of his curse, precisely because the two of them don't make a big deal out of it - him being stuck on the Dutchman, I mean. That never seems to be what he's cheesed off about, nor why she explains her behavior - it's about his sense of betrayal at losing her love.
 
posted by (anonymous) at 10:59pm on 03/06/2007
But with both Calypso and DJ being immortal why should either of them be that concerned with missing one of the ten-year visits if there's no deeper significance?

Also, the captain of Wagner's Flying Dutchman will be free if he finds someone who stays faithful for a (seven year) period.

As I've already admitted, I don't think it's possible to prove it "within" the movie that has been released. But knowing what the writers' intention was I do think the signs are there to be seen, should we choose to.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (elvenstarverity - clever jack)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 12:52am on 04/06/2007
But with both Calypso and DJ being immortal why should either of them be that concerned with missing one of the ten-year visits if there's no deeper significance?

He's just signed on for the job; presumably the ten years still made a difference to him. And Calypso might be planning on showing up next time, but Davy Jones has no way of knowing that - he might have thought she'd abandoned him for good, and that made eternity look a lot less fun.

I don't disagree that there are some signs of the curse being broken, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to not consider it canon if one chooses :)
 
posted by [identity profile] veronica-rich.livejournal.com at 12:04am on 04/06/2007
I saw it again, too. I came up with BACKSTORY for Jack and Beckett and Teague and the whole deal. AND I can reconcile it all to J/W.

I smell fic on the horizon once again ....
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 12:53am on 04/06/2007
BRING IT.
 
posted by [identity profile] jaded-skys.livejournal.com at 01:12am on 04/06/2007
I believe the credits give "Young Will" and a boys name (which really confused me until I saw the extra scene), and unless they called the child on the gallows Will, I think that Elizabeth went along with the tradition of naming Turner boys William.
 
posted by [identity profile] pseudoblu.livejournal.com at 02:38am on 04/06/2007
The kid on the gallows was credited as "cabin boy" or something similar.
 
posted by [identity profile] jaded-skys.livejournal.com at 02:39am on 04/06/2007
So then the person credited as "young Will" must have been Elizabeth's child.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (carrielh - happy elizabeth)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:28am on 04/06/2007
Yeah, I figured. But it's a lot easier to hand-wave the credits away - they don't list Groves' name! :)
 
posted by [identity profile] jaded-skys.livejournal.com at 03:31am on 04/06/2007
They don't?! D:
 
posted by [identity profile] subduction.livejournal.com at 08:08am on 04/06/2007
How about the fact that the child's dressed as a boy and has a distinctly boyish voice? (Devil's advocate, mostly. I'm a fan of the judicious canon hand-wave, and there are all kinds of great possibilities with the child being a girl — although there are all kinds of great possibilities with it being a boy, too.)

On a different note — I also saw it again today, and also listened specifically for the terms of the curse, and just as you say, it sounds more than ever like it's an every-ten-years deal, not a one-time stint. All the ambiguities and conflicting statements with the curse were frustrating me a bit at first, but now I think I kind of like it. I mean, we effectively have two different versions of canon to work with (with maybe a little handwaving in either case), which means... twice the story possibilities? At least, that's how I'm trying to think of it.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (hope27 - hoist the colors)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:44pm on 04/06/2007
Yeah, I'm pretty happy that a case can be made for curse-enduring or curse-breaking. Good times for me either way! :)

I wouldn't call the kid's voice particularly boyish, and the dressed-as-a-boy is very easy to get around - we're obviously meant to come to the conclusion that it's a boy, but the kid's features are ambiguous enough to please me.
 
posted by [identity profile] pseudoblu.livejournal.com at 02:44am on 04/06/2007
In the three times I've seen it, I've yet to hear in the movie how the curse can be broken. I'll smile and nod when people insist on it just because that's how I want my fanon to go, but it's not in the movie.

People were making a thing about both ships having the wind to bring them together but I think that was Calypso getting them together so the Pearl could get her revenge and Will could get his touch of destiny. Someone asked the writers if Davy falling in the middle of maelstrom was her forgiving him (or something, I dunno the site's down for the weekend) and Ted/Terry replied "far from it".
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (slytherinharlot - tia dalma)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:31am on 04/06/2007
Oh, you're probably right about her giving Will the little extra push - I was just thinking she didn't much care if the Pearl went down one way or the other. And I find that response from T&T amusing. While the Calypso/Davy Jones story is well-done and affecting, it's definitely not a romance, and I'd find a Calypso who forgave him extremely hard to swallow in terms of characterization.
 
posted by [identity profile] pseudoblu.livejournal.com at 03:56am on 04/06/2007
Sorry, I meant "her" as in Calypso. I agree that she probably didn't care too much if the Pearl made it or not, just that she was using them to get her revenge for her.

T&T have been very snarky. Makes me wish I'd visited their site before.
 
posted by [identity profile] mair-carpediem.livejournal.com at 03:21am on 04/06/2007
I was curious about the green flash theory as well - because the green flash does seem to come with the appearance and disappearance of the Dutchmen, I had almost forgotten about the "soul returning to life" theory until I remembered hearing it from Gibbs and Pintel.

The green flash was not present in DMC, was it? I don't remember it, which is what makes me believe that it was meant to signal a soul returning from the dead, but whether that was the intention or not, it's inconsistent either way.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (mowd_icons - sunset ship)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:27am on 04/06/2007
It's not just the Dutchman that gets the green flash, though - when the Pearl comes back with Jack's soul aboard. And the Dutchman doesn't green-flash in DMC because Davy Jones wasn't doing his job - he wasn't traveling between words.

It's funny - canon tells us that the flash represents a soul coming back, but it shows us that it signifies only the passing between worlds...
 
posted by [identity profile] thatonekimgirl.livejournal.com at 05:17am on 04/06/2007
If I remember right, there are two times we see a green flash when the Dutchman switches worlds - when Will leaves Elizabeth, and when he returns. TnT said that the first flash is due to the souls of the past Dutchmen crewman (from DJ's time) returning, and the latter due to Will's soul returning. Does that make sense? Are there any other green flashes (from the FD) that I'm forgetting?
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (Default)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:45pm on 04/06/2007
I'd forgotten about the explanation for the second flash. Other than the flash that occurs when Jack (and everyone else) comes back, that's it.
 
posted by [identity profile] jaydk.livejournal.com at 03:28am on 04/06/2007
I think the storm is meant to bring Davy Jones down -- because the maelstrom clears up once he and his version of the Dutchman are taken down. Calypso doesn't go after the ships of the Brethren, just Davy Jones. I agree that I don't see a positive afterlife for that couple, and really, I'm pretty okay with that ;-).

I agree, the movie doesn't make it clear that there's a way to break the curse -- at best, it's an inference from Davy Jones and Calypso's conversation in the brig of the Pearl. But I'll take that inference and run with it, because I feel the movie is leading one to believe that Will and Elizabeth's love is stronger than the curse and the final coda scene is their happy ending. I know! So cliche! And no one else has to believe it. But I do.

I'd really love to know how much ambiguity the writers meant to leave about the curse before the editing team struck, versus the total confusion that now exists. Even though I want the happy ending, I kind of like that it's so open to one's own imagination. If nothing else, the fan fiction has been excellent. I've been enjoying yours a lot, especially -- thanks for sharing.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (backseaticons - mario)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 03:34am on 04/06/2007
I don't mind the idea of the curse-breaking at all (except for when it suits my own nefarious purposes :) But I prefer to leave the actual letter of it open-ended: so much more room for us to write!

I suspect Ted and Terry would prefer a lot less ambiguity, but hey, I'm happy with it :) And thank you!
 
posted by [identity profile] pseudoblu.livejournal.com at 04:36am on 04/06/2007
Actually! They said that they want the curse-breaking as ambiguous as where Jack's compass was pointing at the end of DMC. They just wanted it more obvious that it was supposed to be ambiguous. If that makes sense?
ext_14908: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] venusinchains.livejournal.com at 04:35am on 04/06/2007
"Someone [...] recently put forth the idea that Davy himself might have come up with the ten years/true love deal, which I like because it seems the sort of thing he'd do..."

I mentioned it, but I didn't originate it. It was something TnT mentioned on their website as an expository scene that was cut. They did not seem happy about the "cut" part. So, I'd say they definitely intended the curse to end in the coda. But, I'd also say that if you didn't know that, you'd never guess it based on what does appear in the film.

I'd personally love to see it included as a "deleted scene" on the eventual DVD release - making it acceptable as canon, in my mind - because it just fits everything so well (and then the cutting out of Will's heart doesn't seem so unnecessary, because you know Davy would include something that cruel).
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (pokecharm - admiral norrington)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:47pm on 04/06/2007
Yeah, for the curse-breaking version of canon I intend to use, I really like the idea that Davy Jones came up with that part of the curse...
 
posted by [identity profile] crasi.livejournal.com at 05:39am on 04/06/2007
"And every ten years, him could come ashore, and be with she who love him" - I'd thought I might be misremembering it and it was actually 'after ten years,' but no, it's definitely 'every ten years.'
Which begs the question, did the curse extend Elizabeth's life, also? Or is the child there to show that Will has another tie to humanity, one that will remain after Elizabeth's death. Since it looks like Will is stuck with gig until someone stabs him in the heart and takes his place.
Speaking of things spotted after another viewing, spotted the irony of Will being stabbed by Norrington's sword, the one Will made.
ext_15529: made by jazsekuhsjunk (carrielh - will and elizabeth)
posted by [identity profile] the-dala.livejournal.com at 01:48pm on 04/06/2007
I doubt Elizabeth's lifespan is affected by Will's immortality, but if you want to go the immortal marriage route, there's always the Fountain of Youth :)
 
posted by [identity profile] fallinangelz21.livejournal.com at 04:49pm on 04/06/2007
I always laugh at macrabe line, too. Nobody else does.

I feel bad for the people who don't pay close attention to these movies. They miss so much.
 
posted by [identity profile] patty52.livejournal.com at 05:59pm on 04/06/2007
I spent some time writing up an explanation of my take of the cursed Will situation for a diverse group of fans who were discussing it. I offer it here, as it is already written out and spell-checked!

---------------------------

Well, I have been obsessing thinking over the whole curse thing and I'd like to bounce this off y'all. Here is my understanding of the situation Will finds himself in upon assuming the captaincy of the Flying Dutchman.

The many historical versions of the legend of the Flying Dutchman have in common that a man is cursed by the gods to captain a ship for eternity unless he can find a woman who will be faithful to him, in which case the curse is lifted and he is mortal again. He is allowed to go on land every so many years - different versions range from seven to one hundred years - in order to try to find a woman to free him.

In this movie, Calypso is the god in charge of the Dutchman and she picks the captain. She picked Davy Jones to do the job of captaining the ship ferrying those who die at sea to the land of the dead. She also was in love with him, and he with her, and this way, he could live forever. But after the first ten years of doing his job compassionately and correctly, when Jones came to shore, Calypso wasn't there. He went nuts and thought she didn't love him and had tricked him. So, he cut out his heart, put it in the Dead Man's Chest, and hid it far away from him, in order to reduce his pain. He also stopped doing his job correctly and became a monster and object of fear. That is also when his crew became monstrous as well. And, he betrayed her to the first pirate court so they could bind her in human form.

When Jones cut out his heart, he needed to protect it. Since he would die if his heart was damaged, he placed a spell on it such that anyone who stabbed it would be forced to place his own heart in the chest and take Jones's place as captain of the Dutchman.

Jack was planning to stab the heart and become the captain. But, when Will is dying from his wounds, Jack realizes that he can save him from death by having Will stab the heart. In this way, Will has triggered TWO curses. Jones's curse means that Will's heart must go in the chest and he becomes the captain. Calypso's curse means that he must stay at sea and only come ashore every ten years.

Will gives the chest to Elizabeth to guard his heart. When he comes back after ten years, she is there. We see the green flash reflected in her eyes, signaling the return of a soul to the world of the living. Therefore, we know she has been faithful and the curse of Calypso is lifted. Will is now mortal and free to stay on land. Since Jones is dead, his curse on the chest has also ended. Will could have placed another curse of his own on it, but he did not. He chose to let Elizabeth protect his heart instead, so he gets it back.

Calypso is a goddess again and so she will chose another (hopefully good) person to be the next captain of the Dutchman.

Sorry to go on so, but I wanted to get it all down in one place. Let me know what you think.
 
posted by [identity profile] dragonmad.livejournal.com at 11:00am on 07/06/2007
Im not sure about the ship either, but im pretty sure it's The Dutchman. When The Dutchman comes back up with Will as captain, all the fronds are gone, and the riggin is merely torn, looking alot like the frondy things. Just because the sails are whole doesnt necessarily mean that it's a new ship. Could be that the sail's/ship has finally been repaired/taken care of as it deserves. maybe? hahaha, just my own opinion really.

*giggle* No one seems to get that line! Im glad someone else found it funny. I thought there might be something wrong with me! hahaha!

I agree about Calypso and Davy possibly not finding peace in the afterlife, it's a bit ambiguous really and could go either way.

Ohhhh, i like your idea about the green flash. People seemed to have latched onto the fact that it means Will's returned for good, but i honestly don't see that/don't like it. Doesnt seem right to me.

Sorry to keep barging into your lj, but i've been absolutely dying for anything PotC and surprisingly enough, there isnt THAT much, but you seem to have lots of little updates which are keeping me on the brink of sanity, so thanks for that! *slinks off*

January

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
1
 
2
 
3 4
 
5 6
 
7
 
8
 
9
 
10
 
11
 
12
 
13
 
14
 
15
 
16
 
17
 
18
 
19
 
20 21
 
22
 
23
 
24
 
25
 
26
 
27
 
28
 
29
 
30
 
31